The Reality-Based Community

> He would then continue the conversation
> on the implicit assumption that his
> interlocutor had just agreed to do it
> sometime in the future,

I rank that right up there with the salespeople who repsond to my polite decline with an implication that I am not man enough to buy their product without "running to daddy". And I would respond to it the same way: end the conversation as soon as reasonably possible given the circumstances, and never take that person seriously on anything ever again.

Cranky

I agree with Cranky. I see nothing admirable about ignoring other people's concerns. Further, innovation is merely new, not necessarily right, so the assumption that someone else is wrong may be unwarranted. If you can't articulate why a change would be better, in a way that might convince others, there is a good chance it is not better, just different. Because there are resource costs to changing anything, I think a case needs to be made for the change before people go along with it. This evading the step of convincing others seems to me likely to be bad for an organization because the new approach might be implemented without thorough examination. Watson used to talk about people outrunning their mistakes -- being promoted or changing to a new position before their chickens came home to roost and the worth of the previous ideas was demonstrated. As long as someone blithely suggests new ideas and never has to face an evaluation of their effectiveness, someone can look like a whiz kid. Good for the individual, bad for the company involved. People protect the business by being stodgy.

Some words of advice my father gave me:

"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination are omnipotent. The slogan 'press on' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."

The reaction to polite stubbornness can be polite stubbornness. This avoids the salesman effect on the buyer without buying. In any event, it is an ingenious way to start a dialog with people who have stuck to their guns for 25 years.

Cranky,

A salesman who insults you after you said no deserves no business and likely will not last any longer than the one who simply gives up on hearing no.

The goals of the salesman and politician are quite similar once someone says no. If either works for you, would you have it any other way? Their tactics are not always effective, or nice, but one thing is sure; giveing up will earn nobody anything.

Not to defend car salesmen... or salesmen in general ;)

I suspect something has been lost in translation, perhaps because of vagueness necessary to preserve the source's anonymity. The first method as expressed does sound like crude bull-rush salesmanship; perhaps it was more impressive with specific context. The second is too general to be instructive; here again, context might put it in a different light.

"Press on"? Is that like "Stay the course"?

> The goals of the salesman and politician
> are quite similar once someone says no.
> If either works for you, would you have
> it any other way?

The problem is that in both the OP and my example there is a fundamental assumption on the part of the interlocutor that I am too stupid and inobservant to make a meta-analysis of his tactics as he deploys them. If he thinks I am that stupid why should I listen to anything else he has to say?

Cranky

Cranky, the purpose is to enable you to emotionally come to terms with a decision that is logically convincing, but not something you want to be true. the salesman is helping you to get where you want to be all along.

> Cranky, the purpose is to enable you to
> emotionally come to terms with a decision
> that is logically convincing, but not
> something you want to be true. the salesman
> is helping you to get where you want to be all
> along.

Thanks, I hadn't had a good laugh for a while.

My purpose is generally to broom the unneeded salesperson (and, by extension the guy with the latest plan for saving the world) right off my premises and back onto the street. The idea that either of the two have some deep truth that has just eluded me due to emotional blockage is a common one at sales seminars and revival meetings, but doesn't quite match up with how people capable of anything in life actually think.

Cranky

To get out of bed on the wrong side... Abraham

Many a good cow has a bad calf... Laura

Many a good cow has a bad calf... Laura

No man is wise at all times... Theodosius

No man is wise at all times... Theodosius