The Reality-Based Community

Im actually not at all surprised by the results the HOPE program is having. A dozen violations in previous programs before you're sent back to jail? I was under the impression probation was the second chance and figured the system has always been one violation and you're gone.

Also, as a non-native Los Angelean I've always been subconsciously aware of the constant honking for any reason. I can't count the number of times I've been honked at by people without the right of way.

For you, you could convert your existance from high-horn reality to low-horn reality simply by moving north to the reasonable half of the state.

I currently live in Boston where I'd be estatic with a conversion to a high-horn city from a utterly predictable excessivly high horn city. The only thing I could possibly imagine would help would be if each Red Sox player personally stated on TV and radio that each horn blast would result in a victory for the Yankees...that might work.

I suspect public executions would work pretty well. I doubt anything else would.

Move to Seattle, land of the "patient" driver. Not that it matters much, what with the helicopters, and jetliners overhead every 40 seconds.

Horns are over-rated... unless you're a goat.

Seriously, I haven't used mine in years. Perhaps because I am not a goat.

Concerning horns - I spent a week in Paris last October and in the entire week heard people honk only THREE or FOUR times. When I first visited Paris 30 years ago, the incidence of honking was a hundred times greater.

The morale: it is possible to build a kinder, gentler society. Let's get going.

"I suspect public executions would work pretty well. I doubt anything else would."

Posted by Bruce Moomaw

That might be worth trying, but let's do a pilot program. If your car alarm goes off, and there's no damage to your car, summary auto execution - the car is crushed immediately, with no appeal. The car owner pays the cost of doing so.

I bet that the sound of car alarms would be a thing of the past in one week, and that it'd take skilled statistical analysis (or John Lott) to find an increase in the auto theft rate.

Mark, thanks for posting that photo - it must have been amazing in person!

The lack of honking in Paris might be related to the fact that "honking your horn in the city (unless it’s to prevent an accident) can result in fines." (http://www.secretsofparis.com/driving-car-rental/)

"I currently live in Boston where I'd be estatic with a conversion to a high-horn city from a utterly predictable excessivly high horn city. The only thing I could possibly imagine would help would be if each Red Sox player personally stated on TV and radio that each horn blast would result in a victory for the Yankees...that might work."

Posted by dave

Use of one's horn, when not in a provably life-or-limb-threatening situation, would be punishable by mandatory wearing of a 'I (heart) NY' t-shirt for one month. Second offense - wearing of a 'Red Sox Sux - Go Yankees!' t-shirt for one month. Third offense - both slogans (front and back), for one year.

Boston police would be issued videocams to document the offences, and would be paid a $1,000 bonus for each offense. This would eliminate horn-blowing within a month.

Of course, the side-effects of the dictatorship which would be necessary to implement it would possibly outweigh the benefits...

Barry, the crushing is too much trouble, and it could take a long time for the car to be towed to the crusher (or for some sort of portable crusher to arrive). I've long proposed simply making it legal to vandalize cars whose alarms are going off. It punishes the offender and gives the victims (neighbors) an outlet for their alarm-induced rage.

Mark--

Do whatever you want elsewhere but please don't try to turn Manhattan into a low horn-blowing place. Those annoying racketmakers are the only thing that keeps Gotham's streets safe!

(There are game theoretic reasons for this)

For a real explanation of the no-honk phenom in Hawaii, I suggeat a reading of Hunter Thompson's classic "Curse of Lono", in which he recounts several stories of angry Samoan and Hawaiian drivers doing unspeakable violence to clueless tourists. A honk of the horn in Hawaii is really considered a huge affront and unacceptable rudeness and is the best way to get a "beef" going with complete strangers.

Mark,

You may not have noticed it, but kaama'aina (natives and long-time residents of the islands) have a different attitude towards time. There's a word in Hawaiian Creole English, "bimeby" (derived from by-and-by) that sums it up nicely.

Things take as long as they take, and there's no point in getting stressed about it. That attitude seems to seep across into visitors as well.

We don't have much honking here in Las Cruces, and I'm always disturbed when I have to go into LA and hear all the honking going on.

BC

When I was growing up in L.A. in the '60s and early '70s, poeple never used their horns. In fact, L.A. was known for the courtesy of its drivers. I've only visited since '75, but the change in driver behaviour (like a lot of the changes in L.A. since then) is appalling. A friend of mine used to joke that it was because of all the New Yorkers who moved there. (I say this as someone who lived happily in noisy Manhattan for 11 years.)

Bruce Moomaw's comment expresses a familiar viewpoint, but one which I'm convinced is wrong.

As long as sanctions are quick and reliable, they don't have to be severe. That's the point of the HOPE program; you don't need to hit someone with a hammer to change his behavior. Really consistent sanctioning isn't just crime-minimizing, it's sanctions-minimizing, because when people stop offending no sanctions need be employed. (Cf. Machiavelli's descdription of "cruelty well used in Chapter 16 of The Prince.)

And yes, I was told that honking a horn is considered an invitation to a fist-fight. In Hawaii's low-firearms environment, that threat is credible.

Horn-blowing except for an emergency was outlawed in New York when I lived there. First there were stories in the papers about the coming new law, along with an avalanche of smart-ass jokes from everyone you knew, whose point was the complete impossibility and naïveté of such a plan. Then (I think) there was a week of writing warnings, then writing tickets (for a significant fine), then the horn-blowing stopped. It took about two months. Sometimes life is simple.

However, I noted on my last visit about a year ago that enforcement appeared to have fallen off and hornblowing much increased, almost to where it used to be. Every policy has three necessary but not independently sufficient parts: enactment, budgeting for implementation, and competent and committed implementation.

I am living in Palermo this summer and I promise you that absolutely nothing would stop the horn-blowing, car-alarms, and absolute mayhem heard on the streets 24 hours a day.

Presumably they have laws on these things here but one would never know. Hey, it's Palermo.

Prof. Kleiman,

Christopher Hitchens had an article in Vanity Fair about the honking laws, and other random bits of legislation to make NY a more polite place. His tone was snide, but I think consideration and order are pretty great things. I can't find the link, but it was some time in 2004, I think.

The problem is that even if we outlaw horns, what are you going to do about people flashing their brights?

Julie

P.S. Could you please teach something fun in the Fall? There aren't any good policy classes for undergrads.

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