Comments on: Obama, Fox, the GOP, the media, and nuclear strategy: why not call a lie a lie?

By: Jason B

Jason B — Thu, 15 Apr 2010 16:03:37 +0000

Thomas, proliferation isn’t enough? Here’s the excerpt:
“In making this strengthened assurance, the United States affirms that any state eligible for the
assurance that uses chemical or biological weapons against the United States or its allies and
partners would face the prospect of a devastating conventional military response – and that any
individuals responsible for the attack, whether national leaders or military commanders, would
be held fully accountable. Given the catastrophic potential of biological weapons and the rapid
pace of bio-technology development, the United States reserves the right to make any adjustment
in the assurance that may be warranted by the evolution and proliferation of the biological
weapons threat and U.S. capacities to counter that threat.

In the case of countries not covered by this assurance – states that possess nuclear weapons and
states not in compliance with their nuclear non-proliferation obligations – there remains a
narrow range of contingencies in which U.S. nuclear weapons may still play a role in deterring a
conventional or CBW attack against the United States or its allies and partners. The United
States is therefore not prepared at the present time to adopt a universal policy that deterring
nuclear attack is the sole purpose of nuclear weapons, but will work to establish conditions under
which such a policy could be safely adopted.”

Do you really feel like there’s not a big enough loophole to use nuclear weapons if we experience anything approaching devastation to our citizenry? Proliferation just means that we think the enemy might be stockpiling more of these. What else could it mean? And what else could you possible want here, without sounding like an imperialist?

By: Thomas

Thomas — Mon, 12 Apr 2010 05:28:18 +0000

Hans, only one of the two things you assert is true. You’ll tend to get these basic facts wrong when you rely on Comedy Central (and Mark Kleiman) as sources. The Obama administration was good enough to put the 2010 Nuclear Posture Review Report out on the internets, so you can read it for yourself. It does not have exceptions for “bio-attack.” Rather, one of the points of the new policy is that the US would not use nuclear weapons in response to a biological weapon attack on the US. The reservation of rights that is actually in the policy is much different from what Stewart portrayed–the right to go Truman, I think is what he says, the right to use nuclear weapons in response. Which of course isn’t the exception, because then the exception and the new rule are entirely at odds. What the exception says is that the US reserves the right to make changes to the negative assurance provided as “may be warranted by the evolution and proliferation of the biological weapons threat and U.S. capacities to counter that threat.” In short, it isn’t an attack that would lead to a change in the policy, but a change in the capabilities or proliferation of new biological threats.

As for Gingrich’s statement, I have no idea whether in context it was misleading or not. The new policy does not commit the US to not responding to biological or chemical attacks, just to not responding with nuclear weapons. Given that Stewart got the basic policy wrong, I’m not sure why I should think he did a better job of editing Gingrich’s exchange.

By: Robert Waldmann

Robert Waldmann — Sun, 11 Apr 2010 01:01:32 +0000

Thomas, Stewart pointed out a totally false claim made by Gingrich. You assert that this means that he claimed there is no reasonable criticism of Obama. Your inference is insane.

Stewart’s view is that lies damage the debate and should be punished. It is alarming that you don’t agree.

In fact, just because there should be a serious debate about Obama’s polciy, Gingrich’s lies are damaging to the debate, because they obstruct any consideration of any valid argument against Obama’s policy which might exist.

Kleiman’s view (which you might have deduced from his url) is that it is important that people debate the facts and don’t introduce falsehoods. There is no way that this can be held to imply that he thinks the conclusion supported by a liar is indefensible. He hates lies. Why do you object to that ?

By: Dan Staley

Dan Staley — Sat, 10 Apr 2010 21:57:07 +0000

Wife: yes, the fallacious reasoning at that link you provided is exactly the kind of dissonance-hiding sought in links the addled go to.

By: foulmouthedwife

foulmouthedwife — Sat, 10 Apr 2010 21:38:34 +0000

Hilarious, Michael Drake!!
“the links the addled will go to,” Dan Staley? Links like this?
http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/29946.html

By: Barry

Barry — Sat, 10 Apr 2010 19:16:15 +0000

Come on, Warren, that probably overloaded Bux’s brain cell as it was.

By: Warren Terra

Warren Terra — Sat, 10 Apr 2010 17:15:22 +0000

Succint, Bux, but hardly substantive.

By: Bux

Bux — Sat, 10 Apr 2010 16:50:33 +0000

Barack Obama is a piece of crap.

By: Tom Cannon

Tom Cannon — Sat, 10 Apr 2010 16:28:10 +0000

Guys,
Three things:
1) This treaty seeks to reduce Russia’s and the United States’ nuclear arms by one third, still leaving about 1500 nukes per country, but going in the right direction. If we’re going to have any chance of controlling nuclear arms proliferation, we and Russia have to lead. Whatever part of the political spectrum you find yourself, I contend this is good for the nation and the world.
2) In 1973, as a then young Army 2Lt, my Infantry Officer Basic Course class at Ft. Benning, GA, saw a firepower display. These were conventional weapons (artillery, mortars, missiles, and aerial bombs) and their destructive capability was chilling. If we are attacked by chemical or biological weapons, we have some truly frightening weapons that don’t cross the nuclear line.
3) I have no way of knowing what needs to be modernized and what doesn’t. All I know is that use of any kind of nuclear weapon (“modern”, “bunker buster”, and so on) crosses a line that makes the world far more dangerous than it is right now. Look at the policy and what it does for the nation. We can’t afford this kind of willful ignorance when nuclear weapons are being discussed.

By: Dan Staley

Dan Staley — Sat, 10 Apr 2010 16:18:53 +0000

The links the addled will go to in order to hide the cognitive dissonance from themselves. Surely there is a dissertation or post-doc applied work in here somewhere.

By: Michael Drake

Michael Drake — Sat, 10 Apr 2010 15:19:34 +0000

Thomas is just so right. You really are just confused, Mark. See, it’s all about reasonable disagreement. For example, it’s pretty clear that properly construed, Palin’s analogy of Obama to a kid inviting schoolyard bullies to hit him in the face and vowing not to retaliate is really just to say, “Well, President Obama has implemented a policy we don’t believe is sound, but that’s something about which reasonable minds can disagree.” Because we all know that reasonable minds can disagree about whether it’s a sound idea to invite schoolyard bullies to hit you in the face and vow not to retaliate. See?

By: Hans

Hans — Sat, 10 Apr 2010 15:19:10 +0000

Morgan,

If you’d actually bothered to watch the video clip, you’d know that the new “nuclear stance” has exceptions for bio-attack, and for non-signatories of the NPT. Remember, this is samefacts.com, not shitijustmadeup.com.

By: Thomas

Thomas — Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:52:43 +0000

Mark, you’re just confused. You and your comedian friend pretend that there’s no possible way to reasonably disagree with the changes in policy that Obama has made, and yet Gates previously had a much different position (and no event has occurred which would undermine the basis for it), and Obama’s critics are merely adopting his former position. Presumably you’d agree that our current secretary of defense is an expert on strategic deterrence; certainly he is in comparison to the president (a former law lecturer and state senator–apparently good ways to become expert on these matters). And your intemperate criticism of Lieberman for adopting the same position that Gates publicly argued for 2 years ago again seems to me to be a difficulty for you. Why do you think the modernization spending is useless, when Gates believes (or believed) it’s necessary?

By: Morgan Warstler

Morgan Warstler — Sat, 10 Apr 2010 13:36:19 +0000

Mark, you remind me of a kid on the playground asking to be hit in the face.

The fortunate thing about this silly exercise is that NO ONE who is actually a threat thinks that if they pull some weird bio-shit, we won’t storm the white house, throw out Obama, and then nuke the jesus out them.

Because my brother, we are that kind of people. And thats a fact, no matter what your opinion.

By: Swift Loris

Swift Loris — Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:42:57 +0000

In asking Obama about Palin’s remarks, Stephanopoulos was not putting her forward as an expert on strategic deterrence. He was aiming to elicit a deprecatory response that would make the news, and he succeeded. Nothing more to it than that.

By: Mark Kleiman

Mark Kleiman — Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:22:42 +0000

No, Thomas, you don’t become “unfit to hold power” by having different opinions on complex topics. You become unfit to hold power by lying about them, and by putting forward the ex-Mayor of Wasilla as an expert on strategic deterrence. Do you seriously believe that Secretary Gates would remain in office while the President he serves was laying the country open to biological warfare attack? No, you don’t. So why pretend to be a Gingrich?

By: Thomas

Thomas — Sat, 10 Apr 2010 06:17:17 +0000

The current defense secretary, when serving in the prior administration, gave a speech arguing for a much different nuclear policy than Obama and Kleiman are in favor of. That strategy favored deterrence against the use of chemical and biological weapons by means of the threat of a nuclear response. Gates argued that Iraq–a NPT signatory–was in fact deterred by the policy which Obama has abandoned. Gates also argued that the current arsenal was in need of modernization, and that modernization was necessary for a reduction in stockpiles. Now, of course this means that Gates is unfit to serve–anyone holding the views that Gates has expressed is “unfit to hold power”. I guess it also says something about Obama, since he chose someone unfit for the office.

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