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	<title>Comments on: Art, sports, and the decline of a great university</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.samefacts.com/2009/11/arts-and-cultural-policy/art-sports-and-the-decline-of-a-great-university/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/11/arts-and-cultural-policy/art-sports-and-the-decline-of-a-great-university/</link>
	<description>Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.</description>
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		<title>By: News on the UC Budget &#8211; version 2 &#171; UC Berkeley Budget Crisis</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/11/arts-and-cultural-policy/art-sports-and-the-decline-of-a-great-university/comment-page-1/#comment-35502</link>
		<dc:creator>News on the UC Budget &#8211; version 2 &#171; UC Berkeley Budget Crisis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Dec 2009 23:33:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samefacts.com/?p=9434#comment-35502</guid>
		<description>[...] Art, sports, and the decline of a great university, Michael O’Hare’s blog, November 19, 2009. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Art, sports, and the decline of a great university, Michael O’Hare’s blog, November 19, 2009. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis D</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/11/arts-and-cultural-policy/art-sports-and-the-decline-of-a-great-university/comment-page-1/#comment-35078</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:28:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samefacts.com/?p=9434#comment-35078</guid>
		<description>Great University? Dumpster Muffin comes to mind perched atop her tree. Bezerkly is an insane asylum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great University? Dumpster Muffin comes to mind perched atop her tree. Bezerkly is an insane asylum.</p>
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		<title>By: RB</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/11/arts-and-cultural-policy/art-sports-and-the-decline-of-a-great-university/comment-page-1/#comment-35009</link>
		<dc:creator>RB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 04:04:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samefacts.com/?p=9434#comment-35009</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://edustir.com/2009/11/going-for-broke-the-ethics-of-major-college-athletic-spending/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I&#039;m glad I&#039;m not the other person who thought of this subject last week.&lt;/a&gt; I agree with many of your commenters on the issue and I&#039;m convinced there&#039;s absolutely no way this sort of rampant spending will be allowed to continue over the next 20 years. At some point, folks are going to resent spending combined billions towards athletic folly at the detriment of our students and those who educate them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://edustir.com/2009/11/going-for-broke-the-ethics-of-major-college-athletic-spending/" rel="nofollow">I&#8217;m glad I&#8217;m not the other person who thought of this subject last week.</a> I agree with many of your commenters on the issue and I&#8217;m convinced there&#8217;s absolutely no way this sort of rampant spending will be allowed to continue over the next 20 years. At some point, folks are going to resent spending combined billions towards athletic folly at the detriment of our students and those who educate them.</p>
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		<title>By: Cardinal Fang</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/11/arts-and-cultural-policy/art-sports-and-the-decline-of-a-great-university/comment-page-1/#comment-35003</link>
		<dc:creator>Cardinal Fang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 00:38:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samefacts.com/?p=9434#comment-35003</guid>
		<description>I have a lot of sympathy for Professor O&#039;Hare. The taxpayers have decided how much to fund the university, and now the university has to decide how to allocate the funds. Apparently some of the taxpayers&#039; money will go to build a $300 million football stadium and a $136 million athletic palace; meanwhile professors get their salaries cut and classrooms deteriorate.

I would prefer a different model, where the university did not run semi-professional sports teams at all, and where real student-athletes played their sports without $100,000 subsidies and athletic palaces.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a lot of sympathy for Professor O&#8217;Hare. The taxpayers have decided how much to fund the university, and now the university has to decide how to allocate the funds. Apparently some of the taxpayers&#8217; money will go to build a $300 million football stadium and a $136 million athletic palace; meanwhile professors get their salaries cut and classrooms deteriorate.</p>
<p>I would prefer a different model, where the university did not run semi-professional sports teams at all, and where real student-athletes played their sports without $100,000 subsidies and athletic palaces.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel  Levine</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/11/arts-and-cultural-policy/art-sports-and-the-decline-of-a-great-university/comment-page-1/#comment-34974</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel  Levine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 05:26:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samefacts.com/?p=9434#comment-34974</guid>
		<description>Cardinal is correct. The dirty but not so hidden secret is that most of the student-athletes would never have been admitted to the university in the first place but for their athletic talent and are taking up the places of the persons who were academically superior but physically less gifted. Robert Hutchins got it right at the University of Chicago and the U of C&#039;s reputation as a world class university was enhanced by the decision. I have little sympathy for Professor O&#039;Hare&#039;s lament over finances, as he seems to believe that the rest of the University is taking a hit rather than the taxpayers, who fund the university.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cardinal is correct. The dirty but not so hidden secret is that most of the student-athletes would never have been admitted to the university in the first place but for their athletic talent and are taking up the places of the persons who were academically superior but physically less gifted. Robert Hutchins got it right at the University of Chicago and the U of C&#8217;s reputation as a world class university was enhanced by the decision. I have little sympathy for Professor O&#8217;Hare&#8217;s lament over finances, as he seems to believe that the rest of the University is taking a hit rather than the taxpayers, who fund the university.</p>
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		<title>By: Shmoe</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/11/arts-and-cultural-policy/art-sports-and-the-decline-of-a-great-university/comment-page-1/#comment-34967</link>
		<dc:creator>Shmoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 01:46:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samefacts.com/?p=9434#comment-34967</guid>
		<description>The NCAA truly is the Military-Industrial Complex of higher education. Not intrinsically evil, just incredibly expensive and priority distorting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The NCAA truly is the Military-Industrial Complex of higher education. Not intrinsically evil, just incredibly expensive and priority distorting.</p>
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		<title>By: Cardinal Fang</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/11/arts-and-cultural-policy/art-sports-and-the-decline-of-a-great-university/comment-page-1/#comment-34966</link>
		<dc:creator>Cardinal Fang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:53:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samefacts.com/?p=9434#comment-34966</guid>
		<description>The data the professors present show that the football team makes an enormous profit and the basketball team also is in the black, but they don&#039;t make enough revenue to subsidize all the other non-revenue sports teams. 

The answer, according to the professors, is to continue to have football and basketball subsidize the other sports, but to cut back on expenses so that intercollegiate athletics in general is revenue-neutral.

I see the problem, but I don&#039;t understand the solution. Why is Berkeley running a semi-professional football team, with &quot;student&quot;-athletes who are academically underqualified compared to normal Berkeley students? Why is it the football team&#039;s responsibility to support the crew team? Why do normal student-athletes, for example swimmers and field hockey players, get the same deluxe professional sports facilities that the semi-professionals on the football team get?

Wouldn&#039;t it be better to stop running professional sports teams with professional sports facilities, at the cost of over $100,000 per athlete per year, and instead offer a modest subsidy for modest sports teams for actual students?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The data the professors present show that the football team makes an enormous profit and the basketball team also is in the black, but they don&#8217;t make enough revenue to subsidize all the other non-revenue sports teams. </p>
<p>The answer, according to the professors, is to continue to have football and basketball subsidize the other sports, but to cut back on expenses so that intercollegiate athletics in general is revenue-neutral.</p>
<p>I see the problem, but I don&#8217;t understand the solution. Why is Berkeley running a semi-professional football team, with &#8220;student&#8221;-athletes who are academically underqualified compared to normal Berkeley students? Why is it the football team&#8217;s responsibility to support the crew team? Why do normal student-athletes, for example swimmers and field hockey players, get the same deluxe professional sports facilities that the semi-professionals on the football team get?</p>
<p>Wouldn&#8217;t it be better to stop running professional sports teams with professional sports facilities, at the cost of over $100,000 per athlete per year, and instead offer a modest subsidy for modest sports teams for actual students?</p>
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		<title>By: James Wimberley</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/11/arts-and-cultural-policy/art-sports-and-the-decline-of-a-great-university/comment-page-1/#comment-34962</link>
		<dc:creator>James Wimberley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 14:23:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samefacts.com/?p=9434#comment-34962</guid>
		<description>JB: People who donate works of art to museums should insist on display or return. The example is the doggie on embarrassing permanent display in the Scottish National Gallery in Edinburgh, as a condition of the Poussins etc which a rich spinster also donated: and she hired the sort of lawyers who could make the condition stick. No doggie, no Poussins.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JB: People who donate works of art to museums should insist on display or return. The example is the doggie on embarrassing permanent display in the Scottish National Gallery in Edinburgh, as a condition of the Poussins etc which a rich spinster also donated: and she hired the sort of lawyers who could make the condition stick. No doggie, no Poussins.</p>
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		<title>By: Raider Ray</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/11/arts-and-cultural-policy/art-sports-and-the-decline-of-a-great-university/comment-page-1/#comment-34948</link>
		<dc:creator>Raider Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:57:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samefacts.com/?p=9434#comment-34948</guid>
		<description>A minor quibble: You can&#039;t play big time football on natural grass two days in a row. The Saturday-Sunday pairing you suggest would tear up the field, so I doubt the City of Oakland (co-owners of the stadium) would go for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A minor quibble: You can&#8217;t play big time football on natural grass two days in a row. The Saturday-Sunday pairing you suggest would tear up the field, so I doubt the City of Oakland (co-owners of the stadium) would go for it.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Doran</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/11/arts-and-cultural-policy/art-sports-and-the-decline-of-a-great-university/comment-page-1/#comment-34942</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Doran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:39:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samefacts.com/?p=9434#comment-34942</guid>
		<description>Your details may be Berkeley-specific, but the issues apply with variations to hundred or so schools on the big-time-football treadmill, heavily overlapping with our best public and private universities.  If I had the franchise to redesign the system I would severely de-professionalize &quot;college&quot; sports; but I find it hard to dredge up any optimism.  This strange symbiosis (some might argue for a different term) has taken very deep root from sea to shining sea.  Hawai&#039;i too.  The museum stuff is an interesting topic as well, albeit ony very tangentially related.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your details may be Berkeley-specific, but the issues apply with variations to hundred or so schools on the big-time-football treadmill, heavily overlapping with our best public and private universities.  If I had the franchise to redesign the system I would severely de-professionalize &#8220;college&#8221; sports; but I find it hard to dredge up any optimism.  This strange symbiosis (some might argue for a different term) has taken very deep root from sea to shining sea.  Hawai&#8217;i too.  The museum stuff is an interesting topic as well, albeit ony very tangentially related.</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/11/arts-and-cultural-policy/art-sports-and-the-decline-of-a-great-university/comment-page-1/#comment-34938</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:32:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samefacts.com/?p=9434#comment-34938</guid>
		<description>koreyel,

I can&#039;t speak to any campus but my own, but unless you&#039;re suggesting we go to offering classes 24/7, your argument about classrooms being empty &quot;most of the time&quot; doesn&#039;t hold here.  You can find a room before 9 AM fairly easily, and after 4 PM it&#039;s not difficult, but if you&#039;re trying to schedule a classroom that you don&#039;t have squatter&#039;s rights to between those hours, forget it.

If you compare the occupancy rates for the Berkeley classrooms and the football stadium, I&#039;m quite certain that you&#039;ll find the stadium lagging way behind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>koreyel,</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t speak to any campus but my own, but unless you&#8217;re suggesting we go to offering classes 24/7, your argument about classrooms being empty &#8220;most of the time&#8221; doesn&#8217;t hold here.  You can find a room before 9 AM fairly easily, and after 4 PM it&#8217;s not difficult, but if you&#8217;re trying to schedule a classroom that you don&#8217;t have squatter&#8217;s rights to between those hours, forget it.</p>
<p>If you compare the occupancy rates for the Berkeley classrooms and the football stadium, I&#8217;m quite certain that you&#8217;ll find the stadium lagging way behind.</p>
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		<title>By: koreyel</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/11/arts-and-cultural-policy/art-sports-and-the-decline-of-a-great-university/comment-page-1/#comment-34937</link>
		<dc:creator>koreyel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:09:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samefacts.com/?p=9434#comment-34937</guid>
		<description>How does selling vaulted art to a few rich people make it more visible?

How does selling it assist future university scholars who can be granted access to a vault, but not necessarily, to a Wall Street trader&#039;s living room?  

I am not certain the point that a football stadium will be empty most of the time makes you forward yardage...
After all, most classrooms and halls are empty most of the time too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How does selling vaulted art to a few rich people make it more visible?</p>
<p>How does selling it assist future university scholars who can be granted access to a vault, but not necessarily, to a Wall Street trader&#8217;s living room?  </p>
<p>I am not certain the point that a football stadium will be empty most of the time makes you forward yardage&#8230;<br />
After all, most classrooms and halls are empty most of the time too.</p>
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		<title>By: JB</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/11/arts-and-cultural-policy/art-sports-and-the-decline-of-a-great-university/comment-page-1/#comment-34933</link>
		<dc:creator>JB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:12:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samefacts.com/?p=9434#comment-34933</guid>
		<description>Good comment about museums and their invisible collections.  While the Art Institute of Chicago (which used to offer free admission) raises its ticket price to $18 per person, per visit, they can&#039;t consider (I&#039;m told) selling even one item in its permanent collection because then donors will never give them any more works of art.  There has to be some way for those collections to earn their keep and make the museums more accessible to non-rich visitors.  Rent the works of art?  have a time limit on how long a work stays in the collection, after which it can be sold?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good comment about museums and their invisible collections.  While the Art Institute of Chicago (which used to offer free admission) raises its ticket price to $18 per person, per visit, they can&#8217;t consider (I&#8217;m told) selling even one item in its permanent collection because then donors will never give them any more works of art.  There has to be some way for those collections to earn their keep and make the museums more accessible to non-rich visitors.  Rent the works of art?  have a time limit on how long a work stays in the collection, after which it can be sold?</p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention Art, sports, and the decline of a great university « The Reality-Based Community -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/11/arts-and-cultural-policy/art-sports-and-the-decline-of-a-great-university/comment-page-1/#comment-34932</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention Art, sports, and the decline of a great university « The Reality-Based Community -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:26:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samefacts.com/?p=9434#comment-34932</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Dave Dotterer, Daily Choices. Daily Choices said: Art, sports, and the decline of a great university « The Reality ... http://tinyurl.com/ylcyqsj [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Dave Dotterer, Daily Choices. Daily Choices said: Art, sports, and the decline of a great university « The Reality &#8230; <a href="http://tinyurl.com/ylcyqsj" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/ylcyqsj</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: LC</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/11/arts-and-cultural-policy/art-sports-and-the-decline-of-a-great-university/comment-page-1/#comment-34929</link>
		<dc:creator>LC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 05:38:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samefacts.com/?p=9434#comment-34929</guid>
		<description>I am reminded of a BC comic in which one character asks, &quot;why is it that we pay our athletes big bucks and we pay our scientists peanuts?&quot; To which the second character responds, &quot;would you buy a ticket to see a scientist?&quot; 

This issue also makes me think of the recent news regarding David Nutt and the scientific advisory board in the UK. The professors might know better, but the executives may ignore the experts in favor of the democratic majority.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am reminded of a BC comic in which one character asks, &#8220;why is it that we pay our athletes big bucks and we pay our scientists peanuts?&#8221; To which the second character responds, &#8220;would you buy a ticket to see a scientist?&#8221; </p>
<p>This issue also makes me think of the recent news regarding David Nutt and the scientific advisory board in the UK. The professors might know better, but the executives may ignore the experts in favor of the democratic majority.</p>
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		<title>By: KLG</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/11/arts-and-cultural-policy/art-sports-and-the-decline-of-a-great-university/comment-page-1/#comment-34928</link>
		<dc:creator>KLG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 05:04:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samefacts.com/?p=9434#comment-34928</guid>
		<description>Michael: As a graduate of the university that produced the LeConte brothers, who were instrumental in founding the University of California, I share your outlook.  Perhaps 20 university athletic programs (including that of the Leconte brothers&#039; alma mater) finish in the black every year, but even they receive substantial subsidies from student fees and benefit from ridiculously lax accounting rules.  Maybe the post-Prop 13 decline of Berkeley will wake up a few people.  But I doubt it.  Football rules!

Anyway, keep up the good work!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael: As a graduate of the university that produced the LeConte brothers, who were instrumental in founding the University of California, I share your outlook.  Perhaps 20 university athletic programs (including that of the Leconte brothers&#8217; alma mater) finish in the black every year, but even they receive substantial subsidies from student fees and benefit from ridiculously lax accounting rules.  Maybe the post-Prop 13 decline of Berkeley will wake up a few people.  But I doubt it.  Football rules!</p>
<p>Anyway, keep up the good work!</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/11/arts-and-cultural-policy/art-sports-and-the-decline-of-a-great-university/comment-page-1/#comment-34926</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 03:35:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.samefacts.com/?p=9434#comment-34926</guid>
		<description>Michael,

I&#039;m really sorry, and for a former UCLA student to be sorry for Berkeley means the situation&#039;s really bad.  We just hired a new president here, and during the campus visit I asked each of them about intercollegiate athletics.  Our athletics department is also supposed to be self-supporting, but is receiving sizable subsidies from the academic side like your is.

We had five candidates, and I got basically the same rah-rah, nothing unites the Univer$ity and it$ $upporter$ like intercollegiate athletics.  So I expect that when we reach the five year point and our athletics department is &lt;em&gt;still&lt;/em&gt; being subsidized from the academic side, we&#039;ll just suck it up and forgive that debt too.

They won&#039;t admit that in terms of student retention, there are many better places we could put the money than down the NCAA rathole.  Our marching band and its auxiliaries provide a tie to the campus for nearly as many students as the athletics department for a miniscule fraction of the cost.

I don&#039;t understand museum curators at all.  There need to be some controls on the disposition of the collection, but that&#039;s what Boards of Trustees are for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m really sorry, and for a former UCLA student to be sorry for Berkeley means the situation&#8217;s really bad.  We just hired a new president here, and during the campus visit I asked each of them about intercollegiate athletics.  Our athletics department is also supposed to be self-supporting, but is receiving sizable subsidies from the academic side like your is.</p>
<p>We had five candidates, and I got basically the same rah-rah, nothing unites the Univer$ity and it$ $upporter$ like intercollegiate athletics.  So I expect that when we reach the five year point and our athletics department is <em>still</em> being subsidized from the academic side, we&#8217;ll just suck it up and forgive that debt too.</p>
<p>They won&#8217;t admit that in terms of student retention, there are many better places we could put the money than down the NCAA rathole.  Our marching band and its auxiliaries provide a tie to the campus for nearly as many students as the athletics department for a miniscule fraction of the cost.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t understand museum curators at all.  There need to be some controls on the disposition of the collection, but that&#8217;s what Boards of Trustees are for.</p>
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