<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Another drug (yawn) legalization pitch</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.samefacts.com/2009/09/drug-policy/another-drug-yawn-legalization-pitch/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/09/drug-policy/another-drug-yawn-legalization-pitch/</link>
	<description>Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 09:11:39 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sloppy Thinking on Drugs &#171; Daily News</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/09/drug-policy/another-drug-yawn-legalization-pitch/comment-page-1/#comment-32940</link>
		<dc:creator>Sloppy Thinking on Drugs &#171; Daily News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 09:28:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://samefacts.dreamhosters.com/2009/09/uncategorized/another-drug-yawn-legalization-pitch/#comment-32940</guid>
		<description>[...] at the Reality-Based Community, Mark Kleiman recently offered a critique of an argument for drug legalization that stands as an example of how even brilliant, well-informed [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] at the Reality-Based Community, Mark Kleiman recently offered a critique of an argument for drug legalization that stands as an example of how even brilliant, well-informed [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Kleiman</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/09/drug-policy/another-drug-yawn-legalization-pitch/comment-page-1/#comment-32917</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Kleiman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 22:59:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://samefacts.dreamhosters.com/2009/09/uncategorized/another-drug-yawn-legalization-pitch/#comment-32917</guid>
		<description>Please read the article I criticized.  It argues that prohibiting drugs costs lives, without differentiating among drugs.  Yes, it would be plausible to legalize cannabis, though I&#039;d want to do so on a non-commercial basis.  But it&#039;s not the cannabis market that&#039;s filling the prisons and the morgues.  To reduce the crime related to drug prohibition, you&#039;d have to legalize cocaine (including crack), not cannabis.  And no one has ever presented a detailed credible plan for doing so without allowing an explosion in cocaine use.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please read the article I criticized.  It argues that prohibiting drugs costs lives, without differentiating among drugs.  Yes, it would be plausible to legalize cannabis, though I&#8217;d want to do so on a non-commercial basis.  But it&#8217;s not the cannabis market that&#8217;s filling the prisons and the morgues.  To reduce the crime related to drug prohibition, you&#8217;d have to legalize cocaine (including crack), not cannabis.  And no one has ever presented a detailed credible plan for doing so without allowing an explosion in cocaine use.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/09/drug-policy/another-drug-yawn-legalization-pitch/comment-page-1/#comment-32914</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:44:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://samefacts.dreamhosters.com/2009/09/uncategorized/another-drug-yawn-legalization-pitch/#comment-32914</guid>
		<description>My point was that by using the phrase &quot;the drug legalization argument&quot; and centering your response on the example of legalized alcohol leading to more death and damage, you lose site of the very real differences between types of substances. Your implicit conclusion that American society&#039;s experience with legalized alcohol will be replicated with other drugs falls apart once we take into account the very real differences (in toxicity, dependence, cultural tolerance, and so on) between alcohol and other substances that might be legalized.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My point was that by using the phrase &#8220;the drug legalization argument&#8221; and centering your response on the example of legalized alcohol leading to more death and damage, you lose site of the very real differences between types of substances. Your implicit conclusion that American society&#8217;s experience with legalized alcohol will be replicated with other drugs falls apart once we take into account the very real differences (in toxicity, dependence, cultural tolerance, and so on) between alcohol and other substances that might be legalized.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Kleiman</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/09/drug-policy/another-drug-yawn-legalization-pitch/comment-page-1/#comment-32910</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Kleiman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 14:40:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://samefacts.dreamhosters.com/2009/09/uncategorized/another-drug-yawn-legalization-pitch/#comment-32910</guid>
		<description>As stupidly ideological as Milton Friedman sometimes was, he would never have denied the Law of Demand:  as price goes down, volume goes up. Most of the drug legalization argument relies on ignoring that basic regularity, or denying that it applies to drugs.  The claim that heavy users&#039; demand is inelastic is widely believed, but empirically false.  Heavy users in particular are price-sensitive because they spend such a large fraction of their incomes on their chosen drugs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As stupidly ideological as Milton Friedman sometimes was, he would never have denied the Law of Demand:  as price goes down, volume goes up. Most of the drug legalization argument relies on ignoring that basic regularity, or denying that it applies to drugs.  The claim that heavy users&#8217; demand is inelastic is widely believed, but empirically false.  Heavy users in particular are price-sensitive because they spend such a large fraction of their incomes on their chosen drugs.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/09/drug-policy/another-drug-yawn-legalization-pitch/comment-page-1/#comment-32907</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 13:25:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://samefacts.dreamhosters.com/2009/09/uncategorized/another-drug-yawn-legalization-pitch/#comment-32907</guid>
		<description>Just responded to this on my blog at Psychology Today: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sex-dawn/200909/sloppy-thinking-drugs</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just responded to this on my blog at Psychology Today: <a href="http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sex-dawn/200909/sloppy-thinking-drugs" rel="nofollow">http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sex-dawn/200909/sloppy-thinking-drugs</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: TrebleBass</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/09/drug-policy/another-drug-yawn-legalization-pitch/comment-page-1/#comment-32805</link>
		<dc:creator>TrebleBass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 01:53:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://samefacts.dreamhosters.com/2009/09/uncategorized/another-drug-yawn-legalization-pitch/#comment-32805</guid>
		<description>(I&#039;m sorry – yet again – for the extra post; i didn&#039;t plan to do it this way)

About 1. : Alcohol has been the most prevalent drug for hundreds of years, even thousands; way before any of the other drugs were made illegal. Many of those other drugs did exist before, but for whatever reason, no drug has ever enjoyed the level of widespread use that alcohol has (not that i know of). It is most likely, in my humble opinion, that it will always be that way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(I&#8217;m sorry – yet again – for the extra post; i didn&#8217;t plan to do it this way)</p>
<p>About 1. : Alcohol has been the most prevalent drug for hundreds of years, even thousands; way before any of the other drugs were made illegal. Many of those other drugs did exist before, but for whatever reason, no drug has ever enjoyed the level of widespread use that alcohol has (not that i know of). It is most likely, in my humble opinion, that it will always be that way.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: TrebleBass</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/09/drug-policy/another-drug-yawn-legalization-pitch/comment-page-1/#comment-32803</link>
		<dc:creator>TrebleBass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 01:20:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://samefacts.dreamhosters.com/2009/09/uncategorized/another-drug-yawn-legalization-pitch/#comment-32803</guid>
		<description>(apology for the two separate posts)

About 4. : As I understand it, there are three major reasons to join a gang. One is status. Another is security.  Another is respect. 

As with anything else in society, if you have money you have status. If you take away drug profits from gangs, you deliver a strong blow to their status. 

People join gangs for security because they don&#039;t trust the police. Not only do they not trust them, but they see the police as an enemy. A great deal of the reason there is an adversarial relationship between police and young people in low income communities is because of the drug war.

Also, many people in low income communities feel they don&#039;t get respect from the authorities or from society in general. The drug war has a lot to do with that.

It&#039;s true that gang killings would not disappear completely after legalization. However, it is very likely that gang activity itself would decrease.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(apology for the two separate posts)</p>
<p>About 4. : As I understand it, there are three major reasons to join a gang. One is status. Another is security.  Another is respect. </p>
<p>As with anything else in society, if you have money you have status. If you take away drug profits from gangs, you deliver a strong blow to their status. </p>
<p>People join gangs for security because they don&#8217;t trust the police. Not only do they not trust them, but they see the police as an enemy. A great deal of the reason there is an adversarial relationship between police and young people in low income communities is because of the drug war.</p>
<p>Also, many people in low income communities feel they don&#8217;t get respect from the authorities or from society in general. The drug war has a lot to do with that.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s true that gang killings would not disappear completely after legalization. However, it is very likely that gang activity itself would decrease.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: TrebleBass</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/09/drug-policy/another-drug-yawn-legalization-pitch/comment-page-1/#comment-32800</link>
		<dc:creator>TrebleBass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 00:35:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://samefacts.dreamhosters.com/2009/09/uncategorized/another-drug-yawn-legalization-pitch/#comment-32800</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know about that &quot;low prices means more use&quot; idea. Marijuana in the Netherlands is less than half the price of what it is in the US (over there you can get 2 grams for 6 euros; in the US you get 1 gram for 20 dollars), and a lot less people smoke in the Netherlands than in the US.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know about that &#8220;low prices means more use&#8221; idea. Marijuana in the Netherlands is less than half the price of what it is in the US (over there you can get 2 grams for 6 euros; in the US you get 1 gram for 20 dollars), and a lot less people smoke in the Netherlands than in the US.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: newageblues</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/09/drug-policy/another-drug-yawn-legalization-pitch/comment-page-1/#comment-32737</link>
		<dc:creator>newageblues</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Sep 2009 22:47:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://samefacts.dreamhosters.com/2009/09/uncategorized/another-drug-yawn-legalization-pitch/#comment-32737</guid>
		<description>Mr Kleiman says &quot;an end to prohibition would decrease price, and therefore increase consumption, especially heavy consumption.&quot; That&#039;s not certain. Treating users of hard drugs as human beings instead of vermin would reduce the extreme alienation that is a factor in their drug use and will empower public health workers to gain their trust. And funding from a reasonable tax would be available for treatment on need. And drug education could become a credible enterprise instead of the ridiculed handmaiden of alcohol supremacism.
 
The biggest reasons to legalize hard drugs in some way are to reduce the power of the scary cartels (What&#039;s stopping these smuggling specialists- hey, want a cheap underwater submarine?- from teaming up with political terrorists? Nothing) and to largely eliminate the huge numbers of burglaries and robberies, some leading to murder, that are committed to obtain funds for black market drugs. It wouldn&#039;t just reduce such crime, it would reduce the in many areas pervasive fear of such crime too. Under legalization, addicts may suffer more, but their need to inflict suffering on the rest of us will be way reduced. That&#039;s how it should be- addicts should suffer from their addiction, not the rest of us.
 
As the folks at stopthedrugwar.org said, if Mr. Kleiman thinks 15,000 a year US dead from the war on drugs is too high, what is his best estimate? If cannabis and/or cannabis components prove to have anti-cancer properties, as appears to be the case, 15,000 could turn out to be way low. The alcohol related deaths caused by prohibiting cannabis have to be taken into account as well.

There IS a hideous monster out there called prohibition, ruining lives left and right and causing a corruption fest and a snitch fest. Cannabis prohibition is a particularly degenerate enterprise. Doesn&#039;t every serious person know alcohol is much more dangerous? What the hell is the point of trying to force people to use killer alcohol instead of cannabis?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr Kleiman says &#8220;an end to prohibition would decrease price, and therefore increase consumption, especially heavy consumption.&#8221; That&#8217;s not certain. Treating users of hard drugs as human beings instead of vermin would reduce the extreme alienation that is a factor in their drug use and will empower public health workers to gain their trust. And funding from a reasonable tax would be available for treatment on need. And drug education could become a credible enterprise instead of the ridiculed handmaiden of alcohol supremacism.</p>
<p>The biggest reasons to legalize hard drugs in some way are to reduce the power of the scary cartels (What&#8217;s stopping these smuggling specialists- hey, want a cheap underwater submarine?- from teaming up with political terrorists? Nothing) and to largely eliminate the huge numbers of burglaries and robberies, some leading to murder, that are committed to obtain funds for black market drugs. It wouldn&#8217;t just reduce such crime, it would reduce the in many areas pervasive fear of such crime too. Under legalization, addicts may suffer more, but their need to inflict suffering on the rest of us will be way reduced. That&#8217;s how it should be- addicts should suffer from their addiction, not the rest of us.</p>
<p>As the folks at stopthedrugwar.org said, if Mr. Kleiman thinks 15,000 a year US dead from the war on drugs is too high, what is his best estimate? If cannabis and/or cannabis components prove to have anti-cancer properties, as appears to be the case, 15,000 could turn out to be way low. The alcohol related deaths caused by prohibiting cannabis have to be taken into account as well.</p>
<p>There IS a hideous monster out there called prohibition, ruining lives left and right and causing a corruption fest and a snitch fest. Cannabis prohibition is a particularly degenerate enterprise. Doesn&#8217;t every serious person know alcohol is much more dangerous? What the hell is the point of trying to force people to use killer alcohol instead of cannabis?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Joseph</title>
		<link>http://www.samefacts.com/2009/09/drug-policy/another-drug-yawn-legalization-pitch/comment-page-1/#comment-32719</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Sep 2009 14:01:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://samefacts.dreamhosters.com/2009/09/uncategorized/another-drug-yawn-legalization-pitch/#comment-32719</guid>
		<description>Your argument doesn&#039;t make much sense, you claim often that others are ignoring some,&quot;reality,&quot; that only you agree with.

You claim that the heaviest drug users consumption responds to price very well. Economists such as Milton Friedman would disagree, it does not respond to price very well. In a large majority of heavy usage(of addictive drugs) cases, users are physically addicted to the drug, meaning that their usage will not go down if they have to pay more of their income for the same amount. Similarly, it will not scale upward well with price decreases, as after a certain point of addiction one is simply avoiding withdrawals, and rarely does one get as much enjoyment anymore. Lighter users(the larger class of users), would respond much stronger to price changes.

I agree that there probably would be a spike if legalization occurred, especially with marijuana. However, it would be just that, a spike! Usage rates would come back down with time. Fortunately, we have some _actual_ evidence for this, which is the nation of Portugal. Since decriminalization of drug usage(not sale), usage rates have gone down across the board, and treatment rates have gone up(much preferable to imprisonment).

The obvious solution to 2. is a huge price drop. While you claim that it would lead to a huge rise in usage, the Portugal case summarily disproves that. 

As for 4. anyone who believes drug legalization would stop all gang activity/killings is delusional. But drug trafficking is a _major_ source of income for gangs in general, probably greater than that of gun trafficking(I do not know the numbers, but drug demand and supply is higher based on what I&#039;ve seen). Legalizing drugs here would remove a massive portion of drug sales out of gangs hands and into legitimate chemical and agricultural companies. Furthermore, many paramilitary/guerilla movements are funded by cultivation of coca bush or opium poppy, and we could give them a run for their money too.

I&#039;ll spare you the accusation of tacitly supporting terrorism for keeping heroin illegal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your argument doesn&#8217;t make much sense, you claim often that others are ignoring some,&#8221;reality,&#8221; that only you agree with.</p>
<p>You claim that the heaviest drug users consumption responds to price very well. Economists such as Milton Friedman would disagree, it does not respond to price very well. In a large majority of heavy usage(of addictive drugs) cases, users are physically addicted to the drug, meaning that their usage will not go down if they have to pay more of their income for the same amount. Similarly, it will not scale upward well with price decreases, as after a certain point of addiction one is simply avoiding withdrawals, and rarely does one get as much enjoyment anymore. Lighter users(the larger class of users), would respond much stronger to price changes.</p>
<p>I agree that there probably would be a spike if legalization occurred, especially with marijuana. However, it would be just that, a spike! Usage rates would come back down with time. Fortunately, we have some _actual_ evidence for this, which is the nation of Portugal. Since decriminalization of drug usage(not sale), usage rates have gone down across the board, and treatment rates have gone up(much preferable to imprisonment).</p>
<p>The obvious solution to 2. is a huge price drop. While you claim that it would lead to a huge rise in usage, the Portugal case summarily disproves that. </p>
<p>As for 4. anyone who believes drug legalization would stop all gang activity/killings is delusional. But drug trafficking is a _major_ source of income for gangs in general, probably greater than that of gun trafficking(I do not know the numbers, but drug demand and supply is higher based on what I&#8217;ve seen). Legalizing drugs here would remove a massive portion of drug sales out of gangs hands and into legitimate chemical and agricultural companies. Furthermore, many paramilitary/guerilla movements are funded by cultivation of coca bush or opium poppy, and we could give them a run for their money too.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll spare you the accusation of tacitly supporting terrorism for keeping heroin illegal.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

