http://www.samefacts.com/2006/05/microeconomics-and-policy-analysis/the-rising-cost-of-k-12-education/ Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. Fri, 10 Feb 2012 09:54:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 http://www.samefacts.com/2006/05/microeconomics-and-policy-analysis/the-rising-cost-of-k-12-education/comment-page-1/#comment-25984 Paul Camp Mon, 29 May 2006 08:00:43 +0000 http://samefacts.dreamhosters.com/2006/05/uncategorized/the-rising-cost-of-k-12-education/#comment-25984 One issue with the cost of education (and, for that matter, health care as well) that always flies under the radar is that it is essentially a handicraft industry. It is simply not possible to effectively increase productivity as in other industries. The brain doesn't have an accelerator you can step on and technology is of limited value in stepping up the learning rate. As with everything else, if you want it handmade you need to pay more -- a lot more. One issue with the cost of education (and, for that matter, health care as well) that always flies under the radar is that it is essentially a handicraft industry. It is simply not possible to effectively increase productivity as in other industries. The brain doesn’t have an accelerator you can step on and technology is of limited value in stepping up the learning rate. As with everything else, if you want it handmade you need to pay more — a lot more.

]]> http://www.samefacts.com/2006/05/microeconomics-and-policy-analysis/the-rising-cost-of-k-12-education/comment-page-1/#comment-9499 Niels Jackson Fri, 26 May 2006 16:54:30 +0000 http://samefacts.dreamhosters.com/2006/05/uncategorized/the-rising-cost-of-k-12-education/#comment-9499 If we want high-quality teachers, we're going to have to pay them real money. Says who? I forget where I saw this, but someone pointed out that in Berkeley, California, you have bright graduate students teaching calculus to 18-year-olds for $20,000 a year less than high school teachers get for teaching 18-year-olds across the street (and doing quite a bit worse of a job). Maybe that's true; maybe that's not; but it seems intuitively right to me, knowing how poorly adjuncts and graduate assistants are paid in universities generally. If that's right, then obviously you don't have to pay bright people $100,000 a year to get them to teach calculus. You have to give them prestige, and you should probably try to ensure that they don't have to put up with bullshit (i.e., meaningless certification requirements). If we want high-quality teachers, we’re going to have to pay them real money.
Says who? I forget where I saw this, but someone pointed out that in Berkeley, California, you have bright graduate students teaching calculus to 18-year-olds for $20,000 a year less than high school teachers get for teaching 18-year-olds across the street (and doing quite a bit worse of a job). Maybe that’s true; maybe that’s not; but it seems intuitively right to me, knowing how poorly adjuncts and graduate assistants are paid in universities generally. If that’s right, then obviously you don’t have to pay bright people $100,000 a year to get them to teach calculus. You have to give them prestige, and you should probably try to ensure that they don’t have to put up with bullshit (i.e., meaningless certification requirements).

]]> http://www.samefacts.com/2006/05/microeconomics-and-policy-analysis/the-rising-cost-of-k-12-education/comment-page-1/#comment-9498 Thomas Fri, 26 May 2006 15:03:24 +0000 http://samefacts.dreamhosters.com/2006/05/uncategorized/the-rising-cost-of-k-12-education/#comment-9498 If you want to make a comparison, why not compare public school costs to, say, Catholic school costs? The same sorts of issues apply there, and in addition the declining number of members of religious groups has meant a concomitant decline in the number of very nearly free teachers. Have costs increased as much in Catholic schools as they've increased in public schools? I do think there's a lot of wisdom to questioning the traditional model. If we're going to pour money into technology--and we have been and seem committed to--we should expect either some pedagogical gains or some efficiency gains. So far, we haven't seen either. If you want to make a comparison, why not compare public school costs to, say, Catholic school costs? The same sorts of issues apply there, and in addition the declining number of members of religious groups has meant a concomitant decline in the number of very nearly free teachers. Have costs increased as much in Catholic schools as they’ve increased in public schools?
I do think there’s a lot of wisdom to questioning the traditional model. If we’re going to pour money into technology–and we have been and seem committed to–we should expect either some pedagogical gains or some efficiency gains. So far, we haven’t seen either.

]]> http://www.samefacts.com/2006/05/microeconomics-and-policy-analysis/the-rising-cost-of-k-12-education/comment-page-1/#comment-9497 SamChevre Thu, 25 May 2006 18:39:56 +0000 http://samefacts.dreamhosters.com/2006/05/uncategorized/the-rising-cost-of-k-12-education/#comment-9497 If we want high-quality teachers, we're going to have to pay them real money. Maybe. One piece of evidence to the contrary, I think, would be the large supply of adjuncts for entry-level classes and community college teachers. Teaching remedial community-college math, and teaching high-school math, are pretty much teaching the same material; at least here in VA, community college teachers make only about 75% of what high school teachers do; but CC jobs are hard to get and there are many good candidates. I think classroom control issues and licensing requirements discourage more teachers than the pay scale. I would also observe that a significant part of the increased cost of K-12 education has been a higher ratio of administrators to teachers, rather than increased teacher pay. If we want high-quality teachers, we’re going to have to pay them real money.
Maybe. One piece of evidence to the contrary, I think, would be the large supply of adjuncts for entry-level classes and community college teachers. Teaching remedial community-college math, and teaching high-school math, are pretty much teaching the same material; at least here in VA, community college teachers make only about 75% of what high school teachers do; but CC jobs are hard to get and there are many good candidates.
I think classroom control issues and licensing requirements discourage more teachers than the pay scale.
I would also observe that a significant part of the increased cost of K-12 education has been a higher ratio of administrators to teachers, rather than increased teacher pay.

]]> http://www.samefacts.com/2006/05/microeconomics-and-policy-analysis/the-rising-cost-of-k-12-education/comment-page-1/#comment-9496 Nobody Thu, 25 May 2006 18:16:17 +0000 http://samefacts.dreamhosters.com/2006/05/uncategorized/the-rising-cost-of-k-12-education/#comment-9496 You're right that "That's not all that's been going on, of course,..." While I would hesitate to compare myself to your teacher, Mr. Bernhardt, I'd say there's a good chance I could teach math about as well. I've consulted in related areas, I've practiced law, and I've even tutored a few kids in math gratis. The reasons I won't teach in a public school are multifold. The teachers unions have brought about completely irrelevant licensure requirements. Teachers are not empowered to maintain discipline in their classrooms, yet they are required to enforce bizarre "zero tolerance" rules or lose their jobs. Teachers are expected to pass all students. Teachers who encourage brilliant students are castigated for everything from racial prejudice to political incorrectness. The list iis almost endless. I've considered teaching in a private school as a retirement career. But you'd have to hold a gun to my head to get me to teach in a public school. You’re right that “That’s not all that’s been going on, of course,…”
While I would hesitate to compare myself to your teacher, Mr. Bernhardt, I’d say there’s a good chance I could teach math about as well. I’ve consulted in related areas, I’ve practiced law, and I’ve even tutored a few kids in math gratis.
The reasons I won’t teach in a public school are multifold. The teachers unions have brought about completely irrelevant licensure requirements. Teachers are not empowered to maintain discipline in their classrooms, yet they are required to enforce bizarre “zero tolerance” rules or lose their jobs. Teachers are expected to pass all students. Teachers who encourage brilliant students are castigated for everything from racial prejudice to political incorrectness. The list iis almost endless.
I’ve considered teaching in a private school as a retirement career. But you’d have to hold a gun to my head to get me to teach in a public school.

]]> http://www.samefacts.com/2006/05/microeconomics-and-policy-analysis/the-rising-cost-of-k-12-education/comment-page-1/#comment-9495 Anonymous Thu, 25 May 2006 02:32:12 +0000 http://samefacts.dreamhosters.com/2006/05/uncategorized/the-rising-cost-of-k-12-education/#comment-9495 Take a look at German schools. Teachers get close to $100k a year. And the students come out literate and numerate. It can be done. The French do pretty well, too, and they spend less. Take a look at German schools. Teachers get close to $100k a year. And the students come out literate and numerate. It can be done. The French do pretty well, too, and they spend less.

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